A Deep Dive into Effective Presentation and Storytelling Techniques with Fern Chan

Speaker 1: 0:08

All right, Fern, great to speak with you. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Me too, I'm glad to be on. I'm kind of excited really to be on an athlete entrepreneur podcast. How cool is that?

Speaker 1: 0:19

Well, we were talking before we went online, even though, you know, I think, like most of us now, we all have our day jobs. You know you're you're an athlete and rugby player and I mean real deal like some serious injuries you were talking about.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Oh yeah, busted ACL Didn't stop me from running two more marathons, 10 triathlons and now Spartan racer, although probably soon to be retired, but who knows, I'll dig it back out from the trenches, you know.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Yeah, yeah, how many, how many Spartan races have you done?

Speaker 2: 0:49

Um, I too many to count on one hand and two hands, but I definitely got my trifecta. So I did the, the beast, the super and then just the sprint. So I managed all of that before I think I had my first kid, because I said to myself I'm going to get this before these kids come, and after that, yeah, yeah, those are, those are legit.

Speaker 1: 1:10

I, you know, previous life I worked at an event management company. We did software, so like registration software that like Spartan, used for people signing up for events and do that whole thing. But I had a chance to spend some time with Joe DeSena and he's came and spoke to our company a bunch of times. Yeah, he's a he's an intense guy for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:31

I know he won't drive anywhere. He's like oh, you want to meet for lunch and you live in Baltimore and he's in, like Vermont, he'll get on a bike and just.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Yeah, yeah. And then there's all these stories about people going up to his house or his ranch up in Vermont and he puts people through these like intense, like insane workouts, like like you want to go out there for a business meeting and all of a sudden you know you're like three hours into like some crazy workout.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Well, you know the life of an athlete and the life of an entrepreneur. I feel like they're the same, because you need a lot of grit and determination to see to see things through the end Right. There's going to be a lot of up and downs and it's never going to be linear. So you know it's like gold or how to get to that finish line and you know there's a lot of training and consistency that goes into achieving your dreams to finish the race right and to also be an entrepreneur. So I think these are wonderful things to have when you've been an athlete that carries you through into this life. I label myself as a mom printer now, so you know. So all these things.

Speaker 1: 2:28

That's an athlete in its own way. So so let's talk about the book, right? How not to suck at presentations? I think we all agree, or anybody out there agrees most presentations suck. We've all been through many, many, many painful ones. So how do you go about becoming a guru in this space? Like what's the journey to get here?

Speaker 2: 2:50

Thank you for such a title. Let's put it this way I used to be a death by power pointer, right, I didn't come from this because you know I was an expert. It was through a lot of pain and suffering myself, but also sitting through a lot of death by power point presentations. So back in the day, when I had a, my day job was in higher education. I did a lot of training for adult learners. I did a lot of speaking, a lot of conference speaking, and so that was part of my job to do a lot of presentations.

Speaker 2: 3:18

And I think when you start out and you don't realize, and what you do is you see bad examples, you perpetuate a bad example, right, and then all you get are like a gazillion bullet points, people reading it off like a teleprompter. And it just got worse over the pandemic, you know. And I thought to myself oh my God, you did this. This is death by power point. There's like all of us are like zoom bees, nobody's listening, and if I put in so much effort to put my knowledge out there and then it just fell on deaf ears and nobody remembered a word that you said, that would really suck, right. I as a presenter would hate that feeling of knowing that nothing resonated and I would feel bad as an audience member, like what did I just waste your time on, right? So I think it cuts both ways. And so I said myself there has to be a better way of doing this. And I pulled from all my experience I thought you know what you know, just just from some experience of that myself. And then also coming up with a formula and a way to present information that actually sticks. I'm like I'm going to try it out the next time I present and it and it got some traction. It got better, it got better. And so now it's like, hey, this, this works, but you know it's not through. You know, when you say I'm a guru, I mean I've just done through a lot of like trial and error myself.

Speaker 2: 4:30

And now I realize it's like I want to honor my audience's time and I don't want to make sure. I want to make sure that they come away with my message Right, or at least they remember what I said. If they walk away one thing and they take action on that one thing, then I've made an impact and that's the key, right? I want people to get their message out there, but make it memorable because it's like your words matter, what you have to say matter. It takes so much courage for you to get up there and speak your idea Right. Most people who speak probably have a knack for it, but for those who don't just think about, why would you get up there in front of people to speak anyway? Most people are definitely afraid of public speaking, but the fact that you, you're getting up there to share your knowledge, make it count Right, make it stick, make it memorable.

Speaker 1: 5:15

Yeah, it seems like you know from my experience and you know probably, mistakes I've made along the way, creating PowerPoint decks is you. You want the deck to almost stand on its own Right. You want the narrative to come through. And you know, I mean you hear stuff all the time about PowerPoints and you know like what font and size and how many words, and I mean it's like very little, like minimalistic Right, and I haven't had a chance to read your book yet, but I've done probably enough bad PowerPoint presentations. I should what you got? This mix between like, if I'm standing up there and I'm giving a story or telling, giving a presentation, I don't need a lot of content on the PowerPoint because there's a narrative that I can, I can Talk through myself, and then now that the slides are supporting what I'm trying to say versus, I think sometimes I think I've definitely been guilty of this and I've created a number of investor presentations and different stuff you want the PowerPoint to speak for itself. So you're trying to have all the words on the slide.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a common mistake, right? I might think that's what we're also used to seeing. But then you get like information overload and that's people start to use it as a crutch. So they want to make sure that people get all that information. But then what happens is they start reading the slide and they stop listening to you.

Speaker 2: 6:29

I mean, I have nothing against PowerPoint, I love PowerPoint. It's just a tool, a tool, a visual aid tool that supports, like you said, right, you tell us what people came to listen to you and and you already have a captive audience, right, I think people you know show up for your presentation, whether they're volunteer to be there, they want to be there. There's a reason. They're learning from you and want to hear from what you have to say. So you already have a leg up there because you know there's something that they want from you. So how do you present your information that benefits them?

Speaker 2: 6:59

And I think one of the bigger mistakes that people make to us presenters, we make it about ourselves, right, it's like this is what I know and I'm going to share all of this Now. I come from the role of higher education and, lord have mercy. We love to pour all like 20 years of research into, like you know, a one hour compressed slide deck. That that's like, that's a lot of information people zone out. Right, they tune out once they go oh my God, this is just so much data for my mind to to process. And, yep, they start fantasizing, dreaming, and then it's like, oh, when is this over? What did you say again?

Speaker 1: 7:30

Right, that's the last thing to do, right.

Speaker 2: 7:34

So I think it's also curating the information that you're going to give. But also, how do you present your information in a way that makes somebody feel something about that Right? The key is to have that connection with your information to that person. How can I, how can I make my audience feel something about the information I'm sharing so they care enough to to act on it or remember what I said?

Speaker 1: 7:56

Yeah, let's talk about that, because I know that's a big, a big part of what you, what you preach, is this idea that it's it's feelings over words. Right, it's. It's not just the words that you say, it's the you know, leaving them with something that that that you know that they can kind of like deal with. Right, it's not just the information dump, but, you know, getting a point across in a way that like touches to an emotion, like what does that mean? How does that work?

Speaker 2: 8:21

Well, I think you put the nail on the head right. So it's like what Maya Angelou said nobody remembers what you said, but they remember how you make them feel, right, people don't remember the words but, like, like, people go. Oh my God, I remember going to that presentation and I laughed so much. The laughing, that emotion, it evokes something. So here's how people remember things. So they remember image plus emotion. Image plus emotion gives you that long-term memory. So I always like to bring up something visceral, right, even if it's an image that, just like whoa, pops your eyes. Like you know, you put a picture of a juicy burger up there, right, that your terms will probably hate it. But you know people are like, oh, it's with a lot of time they think about their stomachs, you know what? They will start to remember things. So when people feel they're engaging a different sensory part of them, that will then, you know, make them engage more. So it's not enough to just engage the brain. You have to engage some of this the heart, the feelings, and then it's the emotions. That then gets them to listen more, to want to know more.

Speaker 2: 9:22

And part of the key of making it visceral, too, is to use a lot of storytelling in how you present your information, right? Because the moment I say something like hey, imagine this. I'm dropping a prompt in their mind and they're going to be put in this position where they're imagining themselves in this position where they are the hero of the story, nobody's going to picture themselves as the villain or the victim, right, we don't realize it. But it's like, hey, can you imagine? And the moment you say something like that, the brain is going to start oh, imagine this. Just like you say somebody don't think about a purple elephant, you're going to think about a purple elephant. So you put the suggestion in the mind for them to be in the narrative, right? Because once you're in the narrative, you're invested in the story and you want to know what happens at the end.

Speaker 2: 10:06

And those are just some of the tips and tricks that I have to like to hook people in into the stories. Like, if you have to give a presentation, what's in it for your audience member that they're going to want to lean in, to listen more, and a lot of it is self-interest. So I'm like, how is this information going to help me? So you always have to think in that way, right, it's not about what you know and how you're brilliant. But it's like how can I use this information to help my audience, to put them in the scene right of the protagonist, where they are the hero, and you just become the guide. So I'm like Yoda guiding Luke Skywalker. And that's what you want, right? And that's how your presentation should be, ideally what you know, to guide them to where you want them to go.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Well, it's funny. It's interesting that you said Yoda and Luke Skywalker.

Speaker 2: 10:54

Clearly you're a Star Wars fan my princess Leia headphones on, can you see?

Speaker 1: 11:00

You do, you do See, it's like, that's like the purple elephant. I would not have seen that. But now the second, you say that I can't unsee it. So we talk about, or you talk about, the Jedi framework, you talk about the C3PO formula. What exactly is this?

Speaker 2: 11:17

Okay, so the C3PO formula. It also helps people to like remember things, right, and I'm like, oh how, this is brilliant. So here's my C3PO formula that I use to set up. You know, just the foundations, right? You need to have clarity. So that's the C Clarity on the three Ps. And the three Ps are purpose. What is the purpose of your presentation, right? What do you want your message to be and what you're trying to get across? And the second P is the people. Who is your audience? Who are you talking to? That they want to give a shit about, because people, you know they want to must in it for them.

Speaker 2: 11:52

So they want to, you know. So how is this message going to like mean something to them that they want to care about? So who's the people? And a lot of and I think a lot of presenters also sort of miss this part up, right, because they make it so much about them, versus, like, how can my audience learn from this information and how can I help them? I always like, like, picture yourself, is this right If you want to solve a problem, right, what is the problem? You help your audience, so be the Tylenol to their headache. Your audience has a headache. That's their problem, right, and you are going to give them the solution to the problem. So be the Tylenol to the problem.

Speaker 2: 12:24

So that is like the second P, so the first piece purpose, but it's the purpose. What do you want them to do with this information? The second P is the people and the third P is like the place, but I also call it placement, right, like where are you speaking? Is this an in-person event or is this a virtual event? Because you know things can change in those dynamics. If it's virtual, you have to think about how these people beyond camera am I going to see their faces. Can I hold their attention for 40 minutes talking straight on Right? And it's different if you're in person. You can walk among the crowd. Perhaps you can gauge audience energy, versus behind a screen where, if it's a webinar, you might not even see people. You just hope they type something in the chat and they're like awake, right. So you have to know that sort of setting for you to be able to think, okay, what place this is, that I can then adjust my presentation to make sure I can still get engagement right.

Speaker 2: 13:15

And the other P I put there is like placement, like where are you placed in the day and how long have you been given to speak, and I think that plays a big part too, right. So if you get like first thing in the morning, which is great, people are like still, you know, bright-eyed, bushy, tailed, have the coffee. They're still alert that's great. You get the afternoon slot where it's like after lunch, like digesting, you know. If you've got like a deck full of data, you're like, oh my God, what am I going to do with this? You know, crowd, that's now, you know digesting their lunch. So you have to sort of think about these things and how it might impact your presentation and what tools and things can you put in there to then wake your audience up, right, like, if you're in person, you have the afternoon lunch crowd.

Speaker 2: 13:56

Maybe don't start off with the dim light. You like to turn the lights on right, wake people up, open the windows, and so those are the things to take into consideration. So that's the three P's and the O only what they need to know, not the nice nose, only what they need to know. And I like to sort of stick to, like the rule of three. Right, our brains cannot comprehend more than three things at one time, and if they go more than that, it starts to like spill over. So, only like three things, right, what are three things they can take away from? Even better if you just like boil it down to one. But you know, I think our brains can manage three things if you can just compartmentalize and curate the information in a way. So there you have it clarity on the purpose people place and only what they need to know. So that's my C3PO formula to just think about, like before you even start your presentation make sure you know all these things before you move forward on the next step.

Speaker 1: 14:51

And when you say the three things to take away with, I mean you're not talking about just like three things on a slide. You're talking three things like period, like the entire presentation should be no more than three main takeaways.

Speaker 2: 15:03

Yeah, I mean, you can format it. However, you know, if you can group it in a way where you can break that information down as like on this thing, what are the three things you can remember right, and then on this topic, so it's one thing, but three little points.

Speaker 2: 15:16

So you, know, however, your brain can process that information, because sometimes you might have to do it that way, but you know how can you chunk this information. Do you ever wonder why people group their phone numbers like 917478, right, they do it in groups of three. And then that last bit so don't call my number. I guess it likes to set my phone number, but that's how people can think. Right, they can do in small chunks of three and they can take different information, but it just has to be small enough for them to be able to process that.

Speaker 1: 15:44

Got it, got it, and is that part? Is the Jedi framework something different than, or is the?

Speaker 2: 15:50

Jedi framework is more like okay overall. So you know, you know your formula to sort of things when you know what the clarity and all that. So this is more like the overarching thing. So I think, like, how to be a Jedi, right, what is the journey that you want your audience to go on when you, when you present, so think of your presentation as like a journey, because that becomes like an adventure. It'll be exciting. We have Point a we're going to get from here to there, right, and that's the adventure, right.

Speaker 2: 16:15

When, when you sort of think, a journey side, we're going on a trip, right, I don't know if you're a Lord of the Rings fan, but you know that's how, bill, yeah, yeah, we're going to go on an adventure because that sounds like fun. If it's just we're going to run through the history of the world from a to Z, not so much, right, yeah, so that's what you want, right. And then the Experience again, what do you want your audience to feel, right, on this journey? And that's the emotions that's going to make them remember, because it's that visceral feeling and a journey has to have ups and outs. It's never like, hey, we start off here just like if you've run a marathon, you know those 26.2 miles is not straight going.

Speaker 2: 16:53

And I run to New York City Marathon. It's like you start off great, the cannons go off, it's Frank Sinatra getting you through, you know. And then you hit Brooklyn and my 10 is like this is forever, I'm not, I'm still out of. So it's like you, there are ups and outs and that's part of the journey, right, that's part of the experience. What? What are the highs and lows? Can we overcome this thing to get to the end? And that's the thing right. And then the D is the destination. How do we get you to that end point? And then the ice impact. What is the impact that you want to make out of your presentation so that they walk away with something, so that for me it's like the Jedi framework when you're presenting, you have all these aspects so you can think about that experience for your audience as they go on the journey impact that you make and make sure they get to like the destination.

Speaker 1: 17:37

I love that. I love that. I love the way you've been able to. I mean, it makes so much sense and the fact that you're able to tie it into your love for Star Wars is just. It was really really well done.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Thank you, thank you. I just like I'm calling out all Star Wars, right, but can you?

Speaker 1: 17:53

believe.

Speaker 2: 17:53

Greg, there are people out there who've never seen a Star Wars movie.

Speaker 1: 17:57

Who hasn't seen a Star Wars movie?

Speaker 2: 17:58

There are people, these rare unicorns there. Yeah come on.

Speaker 1: 18:04

You know, it is interesting because I do find we're just about Star Wars.

Speaker 1: 18:07

I mean, I grew up I was like Star Wars generation, like we grew up watching all the movies. It was a huge fan. And, and you know, my kids I had two daughters and they're like, yeah, they're like meh, I'm the Star Wars stuff. I've tried to get them into it and they're just not that. I know it's like so disappointing. It's like are you really my kids, like I know. So who? Like you know, as you wrote this book, I assume you do a lot of consulting. Who do you work with? Like are you? Because some of this is like clearly like keynote speakers. I'm at a conference or an event and I'm going to get in front of a group of people, but we also know that presentations suck when you're just you know you're a director and you got to present to your team, right, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:46

So in that sense, yeah, professionals are about leaders and people who have to actually present information to bring their team along. If you have to convince someone, right, how are you going to convey your idea and your thoughts in a way that will resonate with your peers, or even, your, say, underlings? That's a terrible word to say, but you know with with. You know with who you're working with, right, so they actually get the mission, so they actually understand what is it that we're trying to achieve together. So you know people who are in leadership positions. Being able to present and actually be convincing about that, right, is a great skill to have. So, you know, you definitely have professionals at that top level, but even mid level, like if you think about what a skill set it is like to have to be able to get up in front of you know, your, your upper management or even stakeholders to say, hey, this information will serve you in a way that will help you be a better Ex or will help us reach these goals, right, and then you want them to be able to go. Yes, I get it, I'm with you on this journey, right? So, again, having that skill set this applies to entrepreneurs out there too, coaches, how are you going to pitch your product or service if you can't articulate to your audience? I can help you with this problem and this is how we do it, and you know.

Speaker 2: 20:05

And then so you sort of craft the story and tell people like you know, if you've been to, if you've ever experienced this right, then you can then say how can you help this person at the end of the day with your product or service?

Speaker 2: 20:15

What people tend to do is then list all the benefits and all the sort of features with all the bullet points, and it becomes like okay, just another, you know, presentation like any other versus like how can I weave this to make it more personal? Where you have a connection, where the people that's how to feel invested in the story that you've told them about your product and how you can serve them. So, mike, so I've done coaching with other coaches, right, who are also like sometimes they have to present information because they've been given stuff, so they have to present other people's information and follow a certain format which you know it is what it is right they're doing, like a third party presentation or training, like corporate training. So then I help them to find other things that they can make it a bit more interactive. Yes, you have to stick to a format, but how can we still, within this framework, make this information engaging for the audience, that they want to know more?

Speaker 1: 21:10

Yeah, and you know it's my mind immediately, I think presentations, you start thinking about PowerPoint slides and you know boring kind of bullet point types of things. But like I think the underlying psychology here is on and just how to be an engaging person or an engaging speaker, period, right, like you know, whether or not I'm presenting PowerPoint slides or whether I'm just getting in front of an audience or getting in front of my team and you know talking, or you know, even if a salesperson is on a phone with a potential client and there's no visuals, these principles still apply.

Speaker 2: 21:45

Yes, absolutely. Again, like I said, the PowerPoint is just something that helps you as a visual aid. I always prepare for the worst and I've spoken at events where suddenly, like the tech goes down and then the screen goes blank and you're like, oh shoot, Now what do I do? Like you're cursing and the IT guy's not there and you're like fudge. Then you have to go to the highest level of preparation.

Speaker 2: 22:08

Like, you know what to do when shit hits the fan, right? So, okay, well, it's not working. But let me tell you what I do know. And then you have to know whatever skills that you have to be able to pivot, because you wouldn't get up there and speak to something that you didn't know about, right, so you are your own subject matter expert. You do have to trust in that and know what to do to pull in should other things fall. Like you know, it's happened many times where I oh, that's not going to work.

Speaker 2: 22:31

Oh, that's actually going to work. Let's pivot and do something else. And then you that is when some of the magic can happen, when you're, when you're so engaging, that sense of like you know what, let's just have a conversation. You know, the tech guys are not with us today, and it's okay, but let me tell you how we can make this still work. And then you know, you pull from your knowledge and you bring the audience in a different way.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Yeah, I love that. So let's, let's shift gears here real quick. I'm really interested, I mean, looking at your background and kind of your, you know, following you, your career progression on LinkedIn, and you kind of talked a little bit about how you got to where you got to. I mean, you know, you essentially made a jump to to become an entrepreneur and go full bore and like this is what I'm going to do now. Yeah, talk to me a little bit about that journey.

Speaker 2: 23:14

I know Well. So I wrote the book back in October 21. So I saw, oh, so it was just like a, you know, a labor of love. I wrote it also because it was the height of the pandemic. I'm sitting on my ass what I'm going to do, I'm going to write a book. These two things that you know happened at the same time.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Although my husband's, like you know, have you thought about maybe you, maybe you shouldn't do so many things at once. I'm like no. So anyway, that came about and I'm like I felt like I could help somebody if I wrote this book, because then, you know, other people have to present, could do a better job as we come out of the pandemic. At that point we didn't know when, right. So it's like I'm going to sit through a lot more Zooms. Something's going to have to happen so.

Speaker 2: 23:53

So it came out of that, and then I I, you know my job still required me to do presentations and all of that. So you know, I carried on that and I thought, you know I can do more about this. And so what I did was I transitioned the book into a digital course where I thought, you know what I could serve more people, who who want to learn a little different, who want a bit more interactive content where they can learn more, because it's great to read a book, but it's sometimes hard to show technical aspects right, like how can I show you what buttons to click if you want to do the sort of cool trick? And so those are the things that I found really helpful to put into the digital course. And then I thought you know what that people who buy courses and I'm one of these guilty people I love to learn, I do come from higher education. Learning is like a lifelong passion, but sometimes I don't finish courses right, like may a cold blood.

Speaker 2: 24:38

But then I thought how can I help people really get to the point where it's like, if you have a presentation that you have to do, let me walk you through from soup to nuts, let me review, let me help you so you can present, also in front of a group of other people, where you know you've got like your message crafted, you've got it where it's going to hit the point, and then you can see right what it's like to to present in a way that you've never done before but also get, like you know, group feedback and all that so. So then I developed a coaching program and then, you know, after I thought you know what, it's time to kind of burn the bolts. I'm ready to go all in on my new career as an mom printer, because I trust that I can do this now, and you know it's kind of hard to do like your full time job and your full time. You know entrepreneur things and at some point.

Speaker 2: 25:22

it's like you know what, I'm ready to make the jump and I'm so glad I did. But you know, like I mentioned earlier on, it's like it's it's you know like this right. The journey of a entrepreneur takes a lot of grit and resilience and thank God we've had the training as athletes you know to to, to sort of like go the long distance.

Speaker 1: 25:41

Yeah, well, I was listening to somebody talk about entrepreneurship in this country and you know, we, as you know, americans in general like to think that we're a very entrepreneurial nation and I think to some extent we are. A lot of innovation comes out of this country. But you know the point that I can't remember I think it might have been a podcast or no. You know what it was. I was listening to Phil Knight's audiobook, phil Knight's audiobook, shoe Dog, the other day and he was talking about how because he true entrepreneur, right, I mean he started Nike selling shoes out of the back of his car. And you know his own entire story to you know, nike becoming a you know a hundred billion dollar company.

Speaker 1: 26:19

And he's like we believe that we're an entrepreneurial nation but in many ways we're not. And his point was kind of pointing to the fact of, like the way insurance is so tied up into having a job in our 401ks and investments and steady paychecks and this, that and the other, and it's really difficult and I've been in that seat before it's very difficult to leave the security and the steady nature of like a full-time job to go out there and become an entrepreneur I have. That's one of the reasons I have so much respect for entrepreneurs and I think, as you said, that kind of athlete mentality plays so well into it. I mean, it was really what led me to start this. How did you weigh that? The risk versus the reward, the kind of the steady versus the unknown?

Speaker 2: 27:08

Yeah, no for sure, right? I mean like I already had a thought to do it, but I wasn't brave enough to pull the trigger until something happened at work when I thought you know what, you know that comes. A point was like I can't grow anymore where I am in my job, right, that's a cap to how much I can do, and I can give it another hundred and 20%, but what is it that gonna give me back in return? If I'm hustling so hard for a job that I can only do so much, I might as well hustle for myself. So I think a lot of it too is like do you trust yourself enough to do it? And it's not for everybody, right? And no shade to anybody who doesn't wanna do it, because it's not.

Speaker 2: 27:50

It does take a lot of guts to put yourself out there on the line and to do it. Do it messy, right? I mean, and I put myself in a lot of other groups with other entrepreneurs and just, you know the mindset of like you know what, you'll never be ready, so you might as well just go in, do it messy, don't wait for it to be perfect. It's ugly, it's okay, but do it scared and do it anyway. Right, and one of the things that I remember listening to Tony Robbins said was burn the boats and swim for the island, because if you always have like, oh, I just have my little safety boat, you'll never have the courage to go for it unless you have nothing else right? So it's like okay, bye to my nine, my nine and five.

Speaker 2: 28:33

I left my job at the end of June and so I'm now all in on me, cause now it's like, okay, it's time to put your money where your mouth is. But it's it's in a way, so liberating cause you get to do so many things On your own terms, and I think that's also the heart of what an entrepreneur does. Right, it's like you have to believe that you can do this and to sort of go all in on. Some of you know like I can make this work, and if and if I fail at this one point, I need to learn from this. Right, my first webinar I did.

Speaker 2: 29:03

I'm like, okay, well, two people showed up and it's okay, I got the practice right. That's what you do, right, it's like practice makes progress and that's what you're striving for the progress, not perfection. I'm never gonna, like you know, clock a time for the marathon where I'm gonna qualify for Boston. Hell, no, I just want to get to the finish line. You know everybody gets a medal and David would say, like I did it and I and I had the training and you know resistance and the persistence to to, you know, fall back on all the things that I know that I can do to get me through to the end throughout the suckiest parts of the race, right, just like when the going gets tough, you're like oh man, I didn't get any clients this month or whatever. I was like okay, what can I do in the meantime to make sure that I do enough revenue generating activities so that you know the, the fruits of the your label will come down the road?

Speaker 1: 29:52

Yeah, no, I love that. And you know I come from a software development background and in software the old way that you know people used to build products is they would like design these products out and they would I mean they would every feature, every function and it would be this huge entire list and they would kind of go in a lab and they would spend 18 months and they'd build this thing and then they'd get out to market and most of the cases the requirements changed, they missed it, they didn't understand the customer and it'd be a huge waste. And then the way software is built now is it's very much iterative.

Speaker 1: 30:24

It's like, let's just get something out there and then we'll see what people think and then we'll adjust. And you know and I think that's the same thing with, sometimes, with entrepreneurship is people will sit there and they're like, I want to start this company and they try to solve every problem and think about everything that's going to happen. And sometimes the best thing to do is, like, just start, start, Like, like, like, go out there, get to market, like, put it in front of someone, Like. I've actually heard things saying to the extent of like, if you're not absolutely embarrassed by the first product you rolled out to market, you waited too long, Like, it's not going to be good and it's okay. You know like and so it it seems like you've you've really embraced that. I love that approach. I. You know this is a little bit of a mechanical thing. Maybe you know, kind of the old, how the sausage is made, but I always have a lot of respect for people who write books. I have not written one. I've thought about it.

Speaker 2: 31:17

How did, how did that?

Speaker 1: 31:19

Yeah, what? Told me back. Well, how did that process start for you? Like, where do you start? Like, did you get a book on how to write a book, or did you just go pen to paper?

Speaker 2: 31:27

Pen to pen to paper. So also my father's a newspaper editor. So I do come from a line of writers. I like to believe that the the, the writing gene is in our blood somewhere, because he was a newspaper editor. He was brutal with the red pen with me growing up, ooh so.

Speaker 2: 31:44

So in that sense I had some grading as to how am I going to convey my message in a way that's, you know, short to the point, so it's not waffling on. You know, when I went to law school it was also one of the things where I was like they love long, waffly sentences that everybody forgot what you said after. Like you know two sentences of a paragraph. So you know. So it's like you know, honing in that craft.

Speaker 2: 32:04

But writing a book, I think for me it was like a bucket list items. Like you know what I want to be a published author. That's one thing I'd love to be able to do, you know. So it wasn't anything that I had like a thought process about. You know what I'm going to write a book. So it came from that a bucket list item.

Speaker 2: 32:20

And I and I actually did it through self publishing school. They walk you through the process because it's not just writing the book. I think that's the easiest part writing the book, it's it's everything else afterwards. Right, how do you market the book, make sure you do all the sort of things, that's right. But you know, some people do it just to to say like you know what I wrote a book I published, I put it out in the world to, to, to have like a legacy piece, and I wrote it. I dedicated it to my dad, you know, because you know, because he gave me that sort of the initial gene right To write. So I, I, I honor that as part of my, my, my, my legacy as well. And you know, one day, hopefully, my kids will read the book too.

Speaker 2: 32:56

And then you know, it's, it's, it's something right, and I use the book as a business card really, and now it's become something that I can say hey, I'm a published author, but I'm also an educator and a speaker and if you want to know more about me, you can get my book. Oh, you want to know more? By all means, I have a digital course that can help you put together a, a, a, um, engaging presentation. Oh, you need more help where you need me to sort of guide you through the process. Hold your hand and have accountability so you'll actually do the work. Wonderful, come join my coaching program. So again, right, you, you, you use that as a stepping stone which I've used to be able to craft my coaching business, where it's a like a value ladder that I created.

Speaker 2: 33:32

And guess what they make for wonderful Christmas gifts and all the sort of service like you can give it to people. But here's the thing if you have a book, especially for coaches out there or people who have a service where they can write a self-help book, these are also really helpful. If you can go to companies and say you know what, my book would be really good to onboard your employees for these sort of things. So if you think about it right, it becomes a wonderful tool for you to do business to business. And then you know I can say, hey, this could be a really good textbook for perhaps your future students who have to now give you know presentations. So you know they don't do what all the other boring lecturers do and put everyone to sleep. So again, how do you use it as a tool beyond just you know, satisfying one's own ego, but really like thinking about helping somebody in a sense where you know beyond just you know, the self-help? You know you don't want to be shelf-held, right, so take it to the next level.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:24

Yeah, well, I mean, that's. That's the thing I think with, with authoring a book is, you know, there's, there's, there's a handful of writers that probably really make money like selling books, right, I'm sure Malcolm Gladwell when he comes out he's selling millions of copies and all those types things.

Speaker 1: 34:41

Seth Godin, right, but I think for the most part, yeah, it is something that gets you out there. It is something that that that helps you know, anchor you as a professional. It's something that you can use and leverage it within your career as you're trying to, you know, do different types of B to B sales, etc. Etc. You know it's funny. I just was picturing you doing a presentation on how not to suck at presentations and it's just such a very it's like a very meta thing, right.

Speaker 2: 35:04

Well, you know it's funny. You said that what I did. I did exactly a presentation like this. But how do how do we transform your presentation from meh to wow, right? So I did it in front of a peers of educators, because that's my world I came from, and I said Listen, if you want to make sure that people you know can actually remember what you said, you know, here are some tips and tricks. And actually went through an exercise where I improved their memory like this because I use the sort of same technique. So it was kind of based on that one presentation that I gave. That gave me the idea I'm like I could do more on this, and then I wrote the book and then so it was a. So the presentation gave birth to the book about presenting.

Speaker 1: 35:39

So, yeah, Okay, so I know you're a Star Wars fan, so I'm going to end with with a funny question, or a fun question If you had to coach one Star Wars character on how to be a better presenter, who would you? Who would you spend some time with?

Speaker 2: 36:00

Oh gosh, oh, that is such a good question, Greg. Who would I coach to be a better presenter? Hmm, I sort of think of the characters that would be. That would be like who would need the most help, right? Yeah, Well, definitely not Leia, because she definitely has a shit together. I mean, I sort of think through all the characters the most, the most annoying one that drove me crazy was Jar Jar Binks.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Yeah, that was everybody. I think you know it was a mistake.

Speaker 2: 36:42

But I also think like, well, how are you communicating? Who would you speak to? Like I would help him again, like you know, help him with the speech patterns, like how do we get you to speak so people will take you seriously?

Speaker 1: 36:55

So I would help Jar Jar, because also he's the one that I'm like oh, had no presence, you know, and I I'm going to throw this one out there for you, and I know you're using C3PO as part of your framework, but C3PO had so much incredible knowledge and information, but he, he was like so annoying and drooled with the way he was. Yes, yes, that if we could have taught him how to be more of a dynamic speaker, there's like so much value he could have bought.

Speaker 2: 37:24

Oh, that is so true. Well, I think it's because he had so much of that knowledge. It's not to say that he did not. Let's not forget he was. He was well versed in over six million languages right?

Speaker 2: 37:33

Well, so it's like he knows how to communicate, but his execution was in that very sort of dry Anthony Daniels with child love. Right, he was so, so proper and you know. So there's something to him that you know I think holds a high regard, right, you know, when he speaks you're probably thinking, well, he's not from the hood.

Speaker 1: 37:51

Definitely.

Speaker 2: 37:52

So he's speaking a little high level, so I think that's where he's at. Could we get him to loosen up a little bit? Right that that would be interesting. Oh, I have to think about that one, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:03

So, yeah, well, uh, fern Chancom, that's where they can find find more information about you. Is that where they can find out about your, your learning course or online learning course?

Speaker 2: 38:11

Absolutely. So go to Fern Chancom. I also have a quiz that you can take that shows you where you are on the suck meter. If you want to know how, where you, where you fall as a presenter right, are you like Death Star or are you like, you know, rockstar? So take the quiz, it's fun, and then you get a little quick assessment and then and then you can see where you fall on my suck meter as a presenter.

Speaker 1: 38:33

This is awesome. I am literally in the middle of working with a company to help them raise some money and build their investor pitch deck now, so I am going to take some of this and and look at how we can apply it right away.

Speaker 2: 38:46

Yeah, just be mindful of that, that data, because that data will be like the biggest kiss of death, usually when that's when you start to lose people, right Cause they they look at charts and numbers and they're like, oh, am I looking at it?

Speaker 1: 39:00

So if you're not careful numbers and then you start using acronyms that people don't really understand, you're like you know the LTV of our customer is 3.46 and you know our ROAS is this, and then they're like I don't know what any of that means. Yeah, good luck. Yeah, so all right, friend. Well, hey, it was a pleasure speaking with you. I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 39:19

Likewise Thanks for having me on, greg.